Curse

Ultima pyromancer · Nov 24, 2011, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Chaining Fall Back is the standard answer to this. Of course you can chain Fall Back without MMs and go even faster, but only MMs really have both the attribute points, bar space, energy and secondary slot available to easily integrate it without weakening them significantly. Also take off Death Nova, its bad (at the very least micro it so its disabled out of battle).

If you read my post, you could see I have 2 at the very least sometimes 3 fall backs on my heroes. He's still going to be lagging behind relative to the rest of the team that has been running along with me. Also death nova adds too much to the bar to take it out. Without death nova, minions are only there for soaking and it's debatable if minions are even better than a defensive spirit rit in terms of damage mitigation. As you say, the alternative is to micro death nova. Now going back to my post, everything I said about the MM started with the quote "Without micro"

Theres 2 reasons why I don't micro death nova.

1. The obvious, I'm lazy
2. A more valid argument. If olias is not casting death nova out of battle, He is casting it only in battle and then starts to neglect his actual job of damage mitigation. In my Olias build, that mitigation comes from casting prot spells such as aegis, SoA and prot spirit.

For this and other reasons, I don't use an MM anymore unless I know theres enough corpses for him to cast AoTL and instantly get 11 minions.

Jeydra · Nov 24, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I use the SoS (without Splinter) and SoGM religiously and believe the two of them are some of the strongest templates in the game. I will call the SoS in particular the absolute strongest hero template created so far, for my teambuilds at least.

If we believe the idea that most the monsters are dead before half the spirits are set up, we also believe that most mobs die in under 5s. As far as I know, nobody has exhibited a teambuild that can do that, but there has been plenty of evidence to the contrary. It doesn't help that I've posted some of the fastest screenshots around, using all three of MM + SoS + SoGM, beating stuff like 5 Mesmers even though spirits and minions "lag behind".

I find the ST Rit to be not bad, but it's almost always unnecessary. Also, there are only two Rits, and it's competing with two of the strongest templates out there, so I never have room for it.

One point not mentioned so far is that spirit Rits are superb fallback tools. I wouldn't be surprised if a 5-Mesmer party that made a couple of mistakes and wound up at 30% DP cannot clear Forgewight HM, but a team with the Ritualists can.

In the end your own experience is the ultimate deciding factor. If you don't use the SoS but achieve satisfactory results, more power to you and keep ignoring the SoS. I would advise against saying things like "monsters are all dead before Xandra sets up spirits", however, unless you are prepared to defend that statement with screenshot evidence. The idea that spirits and minions lag behind is true as we can all see, but that doesn't mean spirits and minions are bad. You have to show that during the interval when they are actually in the fight, they don't deal so much damage that they more than compensate. When I tested it, my times were significantly faster with the MM than without, and I have little doubt the same will apply with the Rits.

Outerworld · Nov 24, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

The fact that it can pack both decent offense and defense whilst having an open secondary for Resto, Shouts, SoH, ect, makes it probably the most flexible hero build in the game. So while it's not at all necessary to bring one, it is definitely worth it.

Kunder · Nov 24, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultima pyromancer

If you read my post, you could see I have 2 at the very least sometimes 3 fall backs on my heroes. He's still going to be lagging behind relative to the rest of the team that has been running along with me. Also death nova adds too much to the bar to take it out. Without death nova, minions are only there for soaking and it's debatable if minions are even better than a defensive spirit rit in terms of damage mitigation. As you say, the alternative is to micro death nova. Now going back to my post, everything I said about the MM started with the quote "Without micro"

Theres 2 reasons why I don't micro death nova.

1. The obvious, I'm lazy
2. A more valid argument. If olias is not casting death nova out of battle, He is casting it only in battle and then starts to neglect his actual job of damage mitigation. In my Olias build, that mitigation comes from casting prot spells such as aegis, SoA and prot spirit.

For this and other reasons, I don't use an MM anymore unless I know theres enough corpses for him to cast AoTL and instantly get 11 minions.

Death Nova is bad because:

1. Poor chance of success. Minion doesn't die, minion dies away from enemy, minion dies before DN hits. When I've tested it the failure rate is ~25% at the lowest.
2. Poor minion positioning. Minions are even worse than heroes at getting next to multiple enemies, in a large group its almost impossible since other minions take up so much space. That means DN does at max 120 damage in most cases - if you are lucky enough to get anything.
3. Long cast time. Bad for reasons you describe, MMs have so many other nice things to cast.
4. Poor targetting. Love when it gets put on an ally.

So we have a luck-based randomly activating single target 120 damage attack that takes 2 seconds to cast. May I remind that Discord is considered a bad skill at the same damage, 1s cast, with 0 luck around its activation, and is coordinate-able for spikes?

Take off death nova so that you can actually cast worthwhile spells, then put on OoU and run EBSoH yourself. Have 200 DPS from your minion army and laugh all the way to the bank. Personally I do 2 MMs with bone fiends, that gets you close to 600 DPS.

aspi · Nov 24, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Death Nova is bad because:

1. Poor chance of success. Minion doesn't die, minion dies away from enemy, minion dies before DN hits. When I've tested it the failure rate is ~25% at the lowest.
2. Poor minion positioning. Minions are even worse than heroes at getting next to multiple enemies, in a large group its almost impossible since other minions take up so much space. That means DN does at max 120 damage in most cases - if you are lucky enough to get anything.
3. Long cast time. Bad for reasons you describe, MMs have so many other nice things to cast.
4. Poor targetting. Love when it gets put on an ally.

So we have a luck-based randomly activating single target 120 damage attack that takes 2 seconds to cast. May I remind that Discord is considered a bad skill at the same damage, 1s cast, with 0 luck around its activation, and is coordinate-able for spikes?

Take off death nova so that you can actually cast worthwhile spells, then put on OoU and run EBSoH yourself. Have 200 DPS from your minion army and laugh all the way to the bank. Personally I do 2 MMs with bone fiends, that gets you close to 600 DPS.

You do 2 MM? one yourself or both heroes? I always thought that heroes didn't use OOU at all?

Kunder · Nov 24, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

You do 2 MM? one yourself or both heroes? I always thought that heroes didn't use OOU at all?

They use it quite often. Not smart enough to spam it on recharge as I would like (some micro helps), but they certainly use it. At between +350-600 damage per usage depending on what your minion setup is its hard to find a problem with the damage output.

Jeydra · Nov 24, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Next time, run four MMs and deal 1k DPS without EBSoH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIvDb6kLhVY

... theory is soooo useful.

InStars · Nov 24, 2011, 05:54 PM // 17:54

The problem is that hero AI isn't that awesome and heroes often place SoS spirits too far away from mobs or in a position where they can't deal damage to them.

On the other hand, you can just micro SoS manually and do the pulling - then it works great, just a little effort and it's useful.

Anyway - it's the best elite for chanelling rit I know

Kunder · Nov 24, 2011, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Next time, run four MMs and deal 1k DPS without EBSoH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIvDb6kLhVY

... theory is soooo useful.

I have actually done 3 before w/o OoU but with EBSoH. Pretty badass but you have to micro BotM like a pro and OoU just pushes the sac just a bit too far for my liking.

That said... low HP necromancers w/ protective bond ER ele could probably replicate that in any PvE area that doesn't have enchantment removal. Wouldn't even need a huge amount of corpses since 4x necromancers with BotM spam = INFINITY HEALING, it would just have a long start up time. (now I need to go test this on my neglected Necromancer...). Course, 3x MM w/ 1x AP Curse would be superior by far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InStars

The problem is that hero AI isn't that awesome and heroes often place SoS spirits too far away from mobs or in a position where they can't deal damage to them.

On the other hand, you can just micro SoS manually and do the pulling - then it works great, just a little effort and it's useful.

Anyway - it's the best elite for chanelling rit I know

Yeah, its a great elite, just not for damage. Its best value is being in an already strong attribute and supporting other skills very well.

il Priscilla il · Nov 24, 2011, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toraen

An SoS hero provides Splinter and Arage for my melee at high spec which is my main reason for bringing it (3 spirits for MBaS is also very helpful). SoS just happens to be the best channeling elite for cleanup of what I miss, and I don't need it up right away. Even so, it recharges between groups most of the time. Bloodsong isn't actually a required skill, and I often drop it for something more useful. The melee buffs will be used on minions if you aren't in melee yourself, and they distribute the damage fairly well.

Most builds can benefit from a good SoS hero, which is why you see it so much. It's a very safe and proven option that can provide a lot of utility. A mesmer has advantages of course, but you only get three of them at most and you aren't going to need an ST rit in every area.

you can have any number of any class as heroes due to merc slots. That is why 4-5 mesmer is superior to having an SoS unless you are in certain areas of the game where more defense is necessary, otherwise the mesmers eat everything up like candy with multitudes of armor ignoring damage.

bleh · Nov 24, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I vote NO

IMO the core of SoS hero the spirits are fecking useless unless they are all together and up at the begining of the fight (rare).

I use 7Heros currently for Map find, vanq and missions. So i want the team to be all
together most of the time and reasonable speedy.( a little lagging behind adds up to alot at the end of the map.)
so i avoid Sos AND MM

But i found SoS works better if you MICRO a sacrifice all spirits skill at the end of each fight so the hero starts the next fight with no spirits.

MM works fast With Lich aura + splinter or Lich + fallback and bomber build.

I find personally The spot is much better filled with more damage and/or utility.

Toraen · Nov 24, 2011, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Not everyone buys merc slots. I don't have any particular reason to do so because hero teams in general are already ridiculously powerful. Also, for a melee just having Splinter weapon at 14-16 spec is a huge bonus. I can totally understand why a caster player wouldn't want a SoS hero most of the time though.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 24, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

You know, it's possible to run a Channeling Rit with something other than SoS as the elite. In areas where I can reliably group together a couple of foes (i.e, anywhere where Splinter and ARage aren't completely redundant, which is pretty much everywhere if you take a little effort to aggro) I just run RoJ instead. I'll be running someone with smites anyway for SoH so I might as well do it somewhere where I can fit in RoJ. You should try it in DoA... Splinter + ARage + RoJ + extra random AoEs from mesmers or whatever + Whirlwind Attack = instant mob kills. SoS really is just a filler elite a lot of the time.

PS: In case it wasn't obvious, I'm talking from a physical point of view.

Kunder · Nov 24, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

You know, it's possible to run a Channeling Rit with something other than SoS as the elite. In areas where I can reliably group together a couple of foes (i.e, anywhere where Splinter and ARage aren't completely redundant, which is pretty much everywhere if you take a little effort to aggro) I just run RoJ instead. I'll be running someone with smites anyway for SoH so I might as well do it somewhere where I can fit in RoJ. You should try it in DoA... Splinter + ARage + RoJ + extra random AoEs from mesmers or whatever + Whirlwind Attack = instant mob kills. SoS really is just a filler elite a lot of the time.

PS: In case it wasn't obvious, I'm talking from a physical point of view.

I've done RoJ/SoH when running 2 rits. Nice but does run out of energy fairly quickly.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 24, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

I've done RoJ/SoH when running 2 rits. Nice but does run out of energy fairly quickly.

Mine seemed to run fine. I had an ST Rit so I used Siphon Spirit and that other smiting signet for energy. Even in somewhat extended encounters it was mostly fine (I had splinter when I needed it and that was the main point... it gets the +40% LB bonus too). I did choose to exclude Judge's Insight though because I thought the build would be energy intensive as it was. Perhaps you were running it? I haven't run too many variants of the build myself so I'll have to see to what extent it's viable.

Rictuar · Nov 24, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Back in the days of 3 hero teams, sos rit was extremely valuable. It is powerful, armor ignoring damage that comes out almost immediately. It is hard to beat when you have such limited options. Now with full teams of heroes, a spirit spammer is not needed or even desirable imo.

Nowadays you want your team to be efficient, stable, and fast. Sos is indeed very powerful, but not efficient and does not synergize well with other heroes unless you build your team specifically around spirit spamming. Spiritway (in general) was my team build of choice before the 7 hero update. Now the only rit hero I would bother to take is an ST prot, but even then a human does the job infinitely better.

tldr;sos hero is strong, but outdated. There are better options now.

Starlet · Nov 25, 2011, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I always take a SoS, me!

I find having the extra bodies(spirits) invaluable. I currently run with 4 mes, 1 UA, 1 BiP, & 1 ST Prot.

On the odd occasion I'm not playing my Rit, I always bring an SoS hero. While it may not be the best, I'm (sad to say) not the greatest player so the extra punching bags give me a feel of safety.

Daesu · Nov 25, 2011, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Yes, and those areas make up .05% of the game and are already fairly easy.

Not true. Many areas of the game can benefit from bringing skills that offer both offensive and defensive attributes. Especially in HM elite areas, where the rewards really matter, having defensive capabilities would help alot and you cant just c-space through everything.

Quote:

Spirits stay in the backline and tank nothing most of the time. Its not like minions that get up in enemy's faces and draw fire.

Anyone with minimal experience using SoS would know that is not true. Spirits draw fire from attacks also, be it caster or melee attacks.

Quote:

If you are very lucky and all spirits target the right target, Painful Bond is 15e for 30 DPS. That's at be decent, but if even 1 spirit is attacking the wrong target then you get taken down to 20 DPS, which is at the level of degen builds (and everyone knows how much degen sucks I'm sure).

I see them attacking the same target.

Quote:

With only 2 enemies SW is still a 100-150 damage nuke for 5e every 5s that can be precast.

It is not always 2 enemies at adjacent range, which is the smallest range in GW, besides as I have said, taking an all-out offensive skill and comparing its DPS against an offensive skill with defensive capability is not a fair comparison.

Quote:

Lining up 3 enemies is pretty easy, they almost do it themselves. BTW Have you heard about multihit attacks that any competent physical character brings? Anyone who thinks SW isn't one of the top tier skills is just bad, sorry. The only builds that can _instantly_ destroy a group will always be including SW. Nukers can pew pew away, buffed physicals drop health bars in the blink of an eye.

I am not saying that SW is a bad skill, afterall it is a staple in my melee team builds. I am saying that you are ignoring defensive capabilities and just comparing mere DPS when comparing skills. Anyone who don't include any defensive skills in HM is just bad.

Quote:

Chaining Fall Back is the standard answer to this. Of course you can chain Fall Back without MMs and go even faster, but only MMs really have both the attribute points, bar space, energy and secondary slot available to easily integrate it without weakening them significantly. Also take off Death Nova, its bad (at the very least micro it so its disabled out of battle).

MM is not the best choice in all areas in the game. Granted that in most areas bringing an MM is fine, but if your team build relies on having an MM then you have to adjust for not bringing a MM in those cases. Besides there are many other weakenesses with a MM that I dont need to elaborate here. I don't even bring a MM nowadays even in HM, there is no need for it with the current meta.

Fall back doesn't help if your MM hero decides to 2s cast DN way behind the group and micro-ing DN is just a pain. Also not bringing DN doesn't make sense in a minion bomber and the only type of MM build that a hero is good at is a minion bomber.

ruksak · Nov 25, 2011, 06:15 AM // 06:15

I checked the wiki and came up empty. What hero trainer gives SoS? I even tried Balthazar rewards and he only offers the PvP version, which is a completely different skill.

Toraen · Nov 25, 2011, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruksak

I checked the wiki and came up empty. What hero trainer gives SoS? I even tried Balthazar rewards and he only offers the PvP version, which is a completely different skill.

It's an elite skill. No trainer gives it, you have to Cap it. Unlocking the PvP version will also unlock the PvE version for your heroes though. It just shows up as its PvP version in any PvP outpost.